Man without Childhood - From Victim to Offender. E-Book

Heinz Michael Vilsmeier (EN)

• Herausgeber: epubli
• Kategorie: Sachliteratur, Reportagen, Biografien
• Sprache: Englisch

Seitenzahl: 531

Veröffentlichungsjahr: 2024

Beschreibung

"Man Without Childhood - From Victim to Offender" is an interview with a pedophilic offender who spent two decades in forensic detention. The text provides insights from both the victim's and offender's perspectives into the commercially organized child abuse in Europe. In a parallel world to civil society, the trafficking of children, the production and distribution of child pornography, and the prostitution of children are a terrifying everyday reality in the midst of Germany. The report illustrates the functioning of organized child abuse and its interconnections with politics, justice, and other societal sectors. The organized abuse of children occurs in all societal spheres. The structures required for this are firmly in the hands of internationally operating organizations, which also find their customers in all societal areas, regardless of social class, educational level, nationality, religion, culture, or ideological orientation. Social ostracism and state penalties result in the potential blackmail of offenders. The masterminds behind organized child abuse use this blackmail vulnerability to influence politics, government administration, justice, or the economy. The conversations with the "key witness" Bonobo took place in the visitors' room of a forensic institution. They had to be terminated when conflicts arose between the informant and the institution. The final encounter happened in a highly secured room with a partition that made it nearly impossible to continue the conversations. Nevertheless, the informant was transferred to another facility without further notice. The interview was conducted on thin ice, especially regarding the Mafia organization that continued to control the informant within the correctional facility and set red lines.

Leseprobe

Heinz Michael Vilsmeier

Interview with a Pedophilic Offender.

Man without Childhood

From Victim to Offender.

Imprint:

Man without Childhood - From Victim to Offender. Interview with a Pedophilic Offender.

Heinz Michael Vilsmeier

First Edition: Copyright: © 2015 Heinz Michael Vilsmeier

Revised Edition: Copyright: © 2024 Heinz Michael Vilsmeier

Publisher: epubli GmbH, Berlin

https://interview-online.blog

[email protected]

Foreword

In April 2014, I learned about the desire of a pedophilic offender to process his experiences in commercially organized child abuse in a biographical manner. At that time, Bonobo, as we later agreed to use as a pseudonym, had been in involuntary commitment for 16 years.

In sharing his experiences, Bonobo, who now undergoes medication-based treatment, sees it as an important step within his therapy. Another motive is an attempt to enlighten the public about commercial child abuse and contribute to the protection of affected children. Indeed, public understanding of organized child abuse is minimal within society. This is evident in discussions surrounding known abuse cases. Examples include the public debate concerning "posing photos" and the government's stance on this issue. Children forced into making such recordings must find the nuanced discussion regarding where the boundary between posing photos and pornography lies as cynical.

Before the discussions with Bonobo, I knew nothing about commercial child abuse. Through conversations with Bonobo, I learned that there exists a parallel world to mainstream society where the trafficking of children, production and distribution of child pornography, child prostitution, and thus the commercial exploitation of children are commonplace. The business concept of organized child abuse is based on the fact that a certain percentage of individuals of all ages and genders are sexually attracted to children and these individuals seek to satisfy that desire. This occurs both in private and commercially organized contexts. Criminal actors procure children, enslave them, and subject them to sexual exploitation. The necessary structures for this are in the hands of internationally operating mafia organizations. The customer base exists regardless of social class, education level, nationality, religion, culture, or ideological orientation.

Social ostracism and state penalization result in the potential blackmailing of offenders. The masterminds behind organized child abuse exploit this blackmailing to exert influence on politics, government administration, the judiciary, and the economy.

The conversations with Bonobo took place in the visitors' room of a forensic facility. They had to be terminated when conflicts arose between Bonobo and the facility, escalating rapidly. The final conversation occurred in a highly secure room with a partition. Bonobo was transferred to another facility without further notice. After 20 years in institutionalized care, he was released.

The conversations with the "key witness" Bonobo took place in the visitors' room of a forensic facility. They had to be terminated when conflicts arose between the informant and the institution. The final meeting occurred in a highly secure room with a partition that almost made it impossible to continue the conversations. Nevertheless, the informant was transferred to another facility without further notice. - The interview was conducted on thin ice, especially concerning the mafia organization that continued to control the informant within the institutionalized care and set boundaries.

First Day

I wanted to show that I am different.

HMV: The recording device is now turned on…

Bonobo: … How much storage space is there?

HMV: We can store around 3 hours of conversation.

Bonobo: Oh - that's enough!

HMV: May I address you by your real name?

[Silence]

HMV: Bonobo, we are in a forensic clinic, an intermediate between incarceration and therapy, known as enforcement therapy. How many years have you been here?

Bonobo: In total, I have been housed here for 16 years, 5 years in Lohr am Main, 10 years in Straubing, and here in Mainkofen since February.

HMV: What is life like in such a facility?

Bonobo: - Considering the circumstances..., actually quite good. One must adjust their expectations somewhat - but when you think about what you have done, then it's all justified, then it's not so bad.

HMV: What does your daily life look like?

Bonobo: So, here's how it is now: at 6 a.m., I wake up, have breakfast, smoke, drink coffee, then I wash up, change clothes. Then it's time for work, industrial production. Then there's a break, lunch, and I work again in the afternoon. After work, I smoke, sit at the computer, try to do something, something I still can do, something I still know. Listening to music - classical, reading, learning English, and currently practicing the keyboard. There's not much happening at the moment. I haven't reached any stages... So from that perspective, there's nothing there.

HMV: What did you do in the forensic clinics you were in before?

Bonobo: Basically, it was similar, everything is actually the same. - In Straubing, there's one big advantage that it's a large closed area where there are no liberties. If someone wants to visit someone, you go to the nurse and say: I want to go there and there, then they take you there, to the station, where you can visit each other. There's a recreational area with a coffee machine, candy machine. You can go shopping once a week at a slightly pricier EDEKA kiosk that is sinful expensive and unfriendly... That's the Moder.

HMV: The store is in the closed area...?

Bonobo: In the closed area. You can also play football and do sports under supervision. There used to be a large swimming pool, but they closed it down because it wasn't used much. But they have now set up a strength training area with modern equipment. If you're interested in sports, you can often go there, even on weekends. I also occupied myself with playing the piano and reading. I also played the guitar. We have DVDs and videos, which are of course often misused, but that's just how it is, it's inevitable.

HMV: This is called "enforcement therapy" - what do you think is special about it compared to "incarceration"?

Bonobo: Nowadays, it's called "security before therapy," so it's a bit reversed. The major difference is that you're in a hospital, you're treated as a patient. The room doors are open all day, there's therapy available, and you have to deal with yourself. If you don't undergo therapy, nothing will work, and you might just spend 10 years in Straubing. The big difference is that you have to work on yourself to realize what you've done and to make changes so you can live without punishment.

HMV: You mean if you're not willing to undergo therapy, it takes many years to ever get out of the institution again...

Bonobo: Exactly. So you can say, I wasted 10 years, 5 in Lohr and then 5 in Straubing, because I simply didn't understand anything - did nothing and understood nothing. And I thought to myself: "It's useless, I won't get out anyway!" So I had given up hope.

HMV: Was that your thought from the beginning when you stood before the judge and he...

Bonobo: Not really at that time! - I had a different idea of therapy. Completely utopian! The issue was simply that I wanted a libido inhibiting medication in Lohr. That was denied to me. Nonetheless, I was graded, I was walking around, and I simply realized: "This won't go well for much longer!"

HMV: Why was the medication Androcur denied to you? What effect does it have?

Bonobo: It lowers the testosterone level, similar to Salvacyl, which I receive now. Androcur wasn't as advanced back then. It has very nasty side effects. But I was hopeful that what is happening now with Salvacyl would happen, that I could manage it better, that this physical urge wouldn't be there anymore. You could almost call it sex addiction, what I had back then. - Yes, it was contraindicated, that was the reasoning, in that closed setting. But I was granted liberties! And just to get to work, I had to leave the ward, then I was within the clinic grounds, but I was - unsupervised...!

HMV: ... in Straubing?

Bonobo: No, not in Straubing, in Lohr!

HMV: What impact did the liberties have?

Bonobo: It had an impact in the sense that I simply felt like things were getting intense. I just didn't want that. I don't know how long I would have been able to tolerate that. I then said, "Well, if you don't help me with this, then I don't want to work for now. I can't go to work because it's just too risky for me!" Nobody wanted to accompany me. Then we said, okay, let's stay on the ward. Then we were downgraded to zero, and... Well, at some point, I said, "Enough, I'm going to Straubing now!" I then filed the application, and three months later, off to Straubing it was. By my own request.

HMV: You said it was "intense" - what does that mean?

Bonobo: This means that my pedophilic tendencies were stronger than the others and I had considered approaching children to potentially harm them in some way.

HMV: Would you have had the opportunity in Lohr?

Bonobo: Yes.

HMV: How should one imagine that?

Bonobo: Lohr is similar to here, with a bit of greenery. Children roam around because the caregivers also live nearby, that's how it is here too. Then there's a golf course where the children play. So in that sense... And I also would have had the opportunity at any time to leave the premises, there's no fence, no wall, nothing around it. So you could have gone into town, could have eventually run away... find something there... So, the opportunities - they were all there.

HMV: But you didn't do it?

Bonobo: I did not do it!

HMV: Even though you weren't medicated and felt this strong urge to approach children...!?

Bonobo: Yes. I can't tell you why. - I don't know. It was somehow the thought: 'Not during therapy! It cannot be that way, then you'll never get out again!' - That was a kind of underlying thought.

HMV: So the fear of not getting out eventually...

Bonobo: ... I would say today...

HMV: ... blocked you in a way that made you say, "Okay, I won't dare!"

Bonobo: Exactly. - I just wanted to break the stereotype of "once pedophilic, always pedophilic"... How do you say?... I wanted to show that I am different.

HMV: Then you were in Straubing - what happened there?

Bonobo: Basically, I always engaged in therapy in some form, with what was offered to me. But I didn't really pay much attention to it. There's a difference. There were programs available, but I couldn't make use of them. Let's say it this way: I didn't know what therapy was, quite simply! That is... So, that one has to do the therapy oneself, that was not clear to me at all! I didn't know that. I thought: 'The psychologist will take care of that a bit!' But the psychologist can't do anything without my consent, without me being willing in some way... So, of course, the psychologist in Lohr couldn't do anything if I didn't get along with him.

HMV: In other words: you didn't really have the desire to undergo therapy or be treated.

Bonobo: Right. I said or thought: 'I am pedophilic, nothing can be changed about that. I am like this, I'll stay this way, and before anything happens, I'll just stay here and that's it!'

HMV: You mentioned earlier that life in a forensic clinic is bearable in and of itself...

Bonobo: Yes. So, in the past, it was even more pleasant! Back in the day, even in Straubing, you had a computer in your room, game consoles in the rooms. - You could set up huge installations in your room. Furniture - you could really furnish it, make it cozy.

HMV: That's not the case anymore?

Bonobo: In this form, it's not like that anymore. So now, computers are only available like they are here, in the common area. One computer for everyone. As far as I know, this is only on the advanced wards, from F1 to F3. Game consoles are not available at all anymore, at least not in the rooms. Furniture can't be brought in anymore - external furniture. If someone has furniture and gets transferred, they have to dispose of it or store it somewhere. New arrivals in Straubing no longer receive furniture.

HMV: When did you decide to actively seek therapy?

Bonobo: That was with my first change of therapists, ... I don't even remember what her name was now - it doesn't matter! That's sausage! That's when it slowly started to interest me, what was actually happening with me. The woman did... Well, logically, that was Mrs. A.! ... She started working with me. She asked me questions about my inner self, which I wasn't used to, to point out certain behaviors to me and to inquire if I had any idea where it was coming from, why I reacted to certain things in certain ways. It was puzzling. And it really started there, where I then said or where I felt like something was happening!

HMV: So you then said, "Okay, this is a possible way to change something about myself?"

Bonobo: Exactly. Hope began to sprout. Then there was another change of therapists and a move, from one ward to another. That was Mrs. L., who was also very competent. Then we talked a lot about social issues. Then Mrs. A. came back. I had to change again, and Mrs. A. returned. She began to think about relocation. Yes... Then the idea was born.

HMV: How long ago was that?

Bonobo: That was five years ago, almost six.

HMV: So you've been in intensive therapy for almost six years...

HMV: ... Therapy experience, intensive therapy, as you say. Has anything changed in you during this time?

Bonobo: I have become aware of what I take from the children, the imprint it leaves, what... How should I say? The whole environment of the child collapses. It not only destroys the life of that one child but of the entire family when it comes out.

HMV: The magnitude of your pedophilic actions is now...

Bonobo: ... clear to me today.

HMV: ... the first time it has become clear to you?

Bonobo: Yes.

HMV: However, the inclination, the urge towards pedophilic actions has not disappeared in you!?

Bonobo: That's right. It hasn't disappeared. That's why I decided to try taking Salvacyl. It's a libido-reducing medication. I've been taking it for a year now, and the physical aspect, the purely physical aspect, is at zero. For me, Salvacyl works in a way that I am impotent, I no longer have erections... I have no interest in it at all. In that regard, physically everything is... dead. Mentally, there's still a bit going on - but it's incomparable to before. Absolutely not!

HMV: "Mentally, there's still a bit going on" means, you have fantasies, sexual fantasies - particularly pedophilic fantasies?

Bonobo: No, not really. But if I'm watching TV and a child jumps on the screen, then I think: 'Yes, they're cute!', or: 'She's cute!' It's all very, very diminished. It's just... Due to my own sexual experiences as a child... It's just of a different quality!... I don't know how to best explain it!... There's a certain urge there, a certain desire to approach children. Not necessarily sexually now - but there's a desire to touch a child, to hold a child, to hug, to cuddle, to snuggle... It's there!... So, children are... My world! I wanted to somehow get a handle on that because I don't know if I recognize a boundary. That's what I mean by the mind still working.

HMV: You said, due to your "own sexuality as a child". - How was your childhood?

Bonobo: Should I start from the very beginning?

HMV: Start wherever you want. We have all the time in the world.

Bonobo: So, I was born in December '70! According to my mother, it was quite a difficult birth; I stopped breathing after birth, they brought me back. - Yes. I grew up in a small town, on the outskirts, right there. Quite idyllic, with the forest right at the doorstep. When I was five years old, I was playing in the sandbox, and a neighbor came, whom I knew my family had had a good relationship with in the past, but we didn't really get along. ... He spoke to me. ... I was amazed that he was even talking to me normally. And he lured me into his apartment, wanted to show me something. Then he put me on the table, took off my T-shirt, kept praising me how pretty I was... nice belly and so on. Then he pulled down my pants, started playing with my penis, then also put it in his mouth... Yes, that was my first - sexual experience.

HMV: What was this man's relationship to your family?

Bonobo: There was, apparently, a neighboring relationship back then. Apparently, such that they visited each other. I've seen pictures where this man was changing my diapers - and everything that goes with it.

HMV: Was he integrated into the family?

Bonobo: For a while, yes. I can't remember how long it lasted. I only knew him as, today I would say, a bitter man.

HMV: Later...?

Bonobo: Later - yes! As far as I can remember. It was, as I said, the first time he ever talked to me and said something friendly to me.

HMV: What family do you come from - what do your parents do?

Bonobo: My father was a professional driver. Domestic. My mother was a housewife but always did something like being an Avon representative. Or Tupperware. AMC pots - things like that. Later, she became self-employed with a snack bar, where she later met her boyfriend.

HMV: Can it be said that your parents, your father because he was a professional driver, were often away?

Bonobo: Yes. ... Yes!

HMV: Can you remember if you missed him when he wasn't around?

Bonobo: I was glad when he was gone! We were very happy! He was just angry. My mother, you couldn't make him happy, couldn't do anything right for him. So I didn't get much of it - it wasn't like that! I was the youngest and I was his son - at least until I went to school. But... You couldn't please him. - Either the food was too salty, or there was too much nutmeg, or too little... He constantly had something to criticize! And heaven forbid if the apartment wasn't clean to his liking, then...

HMV: ... Were you afraid of your father?

Bonobo: Partially yes. - Partially yes! I can recall some unpleasant moments. I remember that we used to hide at our neighbor's house when my father would lose it. He once threw us out, I think my sister was eleven. I was around six at the time.

HMV: How many siblings do you have?

Bonobo: I have one sister. She is five years older than me. I had lost my key, and he went crazy, threw us out of the apartment, and yelled, "Don't bother coming back without your key, you little brats!" Then we spent half the night running around...

HMV: Did you experience physical violence from your father?

Bonobo: Yes. Initially, as I said, not so much, but later on, he didn't care about me anymore. I was just the cripple, the bastard. I just didn't meet his expectations. He hit less and kicked more. So, throwing oneself to the ground to avoid the blows didn't help, as he would then kick.

HMV: How did your mother behave in these situations?

Bonobo: She tried to stand between the father and the children, but with little success. He was constantly getting upset. When we came home from looking for the key, we had found it, the ambulance was parked outside, taking my mother with a hole in her head. My father had thrown a chair at mom's head.

HMV: Is the memory of this man who lured you into his apartment the first one you have of him?

Bonobo: Yes. - As I said, what I remember is that he used to ignore all of us children, not just me, and would even complain that we were too loud... Things like that. The only active memory I have is of him taking me into the apartment. As far as I can remember, I had never been upstairs in the apartment before. That was the first time.

HMV: How did it continue?

Bonobo: - Should I tell it as I know it now or how it seemed to me back then?

HMV: Maybe you can tell both versions. Start with how you experienced it back then.

Bonobo: So that's all completely independent. - I played in the sandbox with a neighbor boy, his name was Oliver. He was then called home by his father - maybe for dinner, I don't know. Oliver asked me if I wanted to come along. I thought, "Well, instead of sitting around alone down there, I'll go with him!" So we went there. We were allowed to play, we could do anything we wanted! So, it was like a... children's paradise. We could bounce around on the bed, on the couch... We could do whatever we wanted. Of course, I liked that. Oliver then invited me again. That's when the first things started - that we could undress. We could play in our underwear and stuff like that... And we did that because his father was still alone with us. Later on, we were encouraged to do that naked, to play naked... Tag, hide, whatever. That's what we did. Like I said, I was five at the time and didn't think much of it then. Eventually, there were other men and women present who watched us play. We were then encouraged to play games in bed, like touching each other, showering together...

HMV: The children were supposed to shower together?

Bonobo: Yes, yes! Me with Oliver. - Just me and Oliver. That went on until we were encouraged to engage in sexual acts on ourselves - including oral sex. He on me, me on him. I didn't know about that! - Oliver clearly did. I was a bit... awkward about it, let's put it that way. It was somehow repugnant to me too. But eventually, it just happened on its own. Yes, it escalated more and more until we also did things with the adults - touching their penises...

HMV: Were the adults naked?

Bonobo: They were naked then, yes - or rather, they just pulled down their pants - Oliver went straight to it. Like I said, he seemed used to it. I hesitated but eventually did everything they wanted. Yes, and then one day when I went there, a girl opened the door, Miriam - same age, give or take a month. You can't really tell. She opens the door, hugs me, greets me as if we had known each other for a hundred years... Planting a big kiss on my cheek and pulling me right into the apartment... She was only wearing her underwear when she opened the door. We had to undress - she seemed to already be familiar with everything. Then Miriam and I were supposed to shower together. I was quite unprepared, although I had seen girls naked because of my sister - but not like this! Yes, then we were supposed to give each other French kisses. I had no clue what that was supposed to be. She more or less taught me. Because I was a bit clumsy, Miriam eventually called me "the clumsy one". [laughs] - By the way, people often called me "the clumsy one" later on at the brothel. I often tripped over my own feet or acted silly, like with the kissing with Miriam. From then on, I was known as the clumsy one...

HMV: So, through Miriam?

Bonobo: Yes, she was the one who started it.

HMV: How old was Miriam at that time?

Bonobo: About the same age as me. A few months older or younger. Like I said, it's hard to say for sure. - We'll get to why later. - Yes, then we just showered. There was a soap that made a ton of foam, that was really soft. I have no idea what kind of stuff it was. Anyway, we almost drowned in the foam! ... Yes, that was the first contact with Miriam, I - fell in love with her.

HMV: Right at the first meeting?

Bonobo: Completely! I was head over heels! They caught on to that pretty quickly. In any case, then one day ...

HMV: Were adults present while this was happening?

Bonobo: Yes, of course. And cameras, adults...

HMV: Cameras!?

Bonobo: Cameras were also present. That was... They were buzzing around. - There was a man there who claimed to be Miriam's father and who supposedly was Oliver's uncle, Oliver's father's brother. I believed that at first - then eventually didn't. Encounters with Miriam in that apartment happened frequently. They noticed that I enjoyed being with Miriam a lot - and took every opportunity to be with her. As a result, I was offered to go home with Miriam to the alleged uncle of Oliver, this Gilbert. Because he had a big house, swimming pool, sauna, and everything else... I could play with Miriam the whole weekend... Of course, I said, "Yes, why not!?" My parents were told about this as well. This Gilbert introduced himself to my parents. - Yes. - And then I went there with them.

HMV: How did he convey that to your parents? Something like, "F." - What's your first name?

Bonobo: F.

HMV: "F. has fallen in love with Miriam!" - or: "F. really likes Miriam!" ...

Bonobo: It was more like I initiated it and asked my parents if I could go to Miriam's home...

HMV: So you expressed the wish to your parents to go to Miriam's house on weekends yourself?

Bonobo: Exactly. To stay there overnight, etc. ... As I said, Gilbert then introduced himself - as her father. So, from that perspective, they were reassured - everything was clear.

HMV: Was this Gilbert really Miriam's father?

Bonobo: No! No. As far as I know, he didn't have any children at all. - My parents were more or less happy to have me out of the house. At least they had some peace. Especially my father. So, I went along. I was successfully distracted so that I didn't know where I was going. And then I arrived there... And there were 20, 25 kids running around the house - naked! Then I was told to undress...

HMV: Just abruptly like that - didn't that seem strange to you?

Bonobo: Well, not really, because I was constantly doing things like that with Oliver, then with Miriam... There were also other boys around from time to time - did I forget to mention that earlier? [laughs] - where we played naked together. And that seemed absolutely normal to me... I thought that's just how things were in that family...

HMV: Bonobo, why do you laugh when you tell this?

Bonobo: It's partly shame, partly consternation. Sometimes the past mixes with my current knowledge, which is so intense that I somehow have to laugh, to begin to understand it, to get it in order. It's sometimes pretty inappropriate, I know. But that's probably how I survive it.

HMV: Is this laughing maybe a defense, an overreaction as well?

Bonobo: Yes - exactly!... It's not like that with us, but there it was just how it was. I assumed it was a family! I didn't even realize that these were kids who didn't belong there, actually. Yes!

HMV: Was that man who took you home, this neighbor, also there?

Bonobo: He was there two or three times with Oliver, when I was in the apartment with the neighbor. He also sat there at times.

HMV: Did Oliver's parents live in the same house?

Bonobo: Only the father was there. The mother had passed away.

HMV: And Oliver lived with his father in the same house as you, and the neighbor too?

Bonobo: Yes, exactly. Oliver lived directly across from us. The family and the Bärensprung were a floor above us - one floor above us.

HMV: So, two pedophiles living in the same house who knew each other - was that a coincidence?

Bonobo: Either they already knew each other or they were introduced somehow... I have no idea how that went down. I don't know the details. I just know that he basically connected me to Oliver's father. Whether this was a setup from the beginning, I don't know. I'm not entirely clear on that.

HMV: Have you ever considered that your parents might have been aware of this?

Bonobo: Yes, I have. But there was nothing, it was ignorance!

HMV: Did your parents ever go to check the apartment where Oliver lived and where you spent several hours on some days?

Bonobo: They just thought I was playing with Oliver. They once asked Oliver's father if I was bothering them, and he said, "No, let him play, it's fine!" That settled it. They were just glad I was out of the house.

HMV: They never picked you up or called you for dinner?

Bonobo: No, I went there directly... I was a latchkey child! I had a key around my neck. I could go home anytime. That started even in kindergarten. I always had a key around my neck and could go home anytime. As for that...

HMV: The behavior of your parents, as you describe it, seems very strange to me. - How can parents leave their child, five or six years old, alone at a neighbor's house for several hours!?

Bonobo: Yeah. - I even stayed overnight! Oliver was my friend - that's what friends do! I don't find that so unusual!

HMV: But it's unusual that the parents didn't investigate further.

Bonobo: Is that so? I don't know. As an adult, I experienced something similar with other children.

"Oh, my little one is slowly growing up!"

HMV: Alright, that will surely come later. Let's go back again to how you experienced it back then. So, you went with Miriam and this man who claimed to be her father...

Bonobo: Gilbert!

HMV: Gilbert! - To his property. Were many other children naked there - also adults!?

Bonobo: Later - also.

HMV: So, at the first time, there were no other adults there.

Bonobo: No, at first there were adults too, but that came later. When I entered, there were just the children. It was a large hall. - One has to imagine it like this: It was a huge house! When you entered, you immediately saw this huge hall, the entrance area. And the children were playing around - naked! There was a swimming pool there, a sauna, everything! There was a doctor's office, a real practice. There was a film studio and many bedrooms. Everything one could desire. With a forest, animals, the whole shebang - with cats. Everything you can imagine. They even had chickens.

HMV: Was it an agricultural estate?

Bonobo: I would describe it as a mansion. It was a massive thing! Right in the middle of the forest, more or less with a long driveway. It was like a scene from a movie, that place. - And I don't know where that place is!

HMV: You don't know where the estate is?

Bonobo: I don't know where that place is! I can't find it!

HMV: What is the name of your hometown?

Bonobo: Alzenau - near Aschaffenburg. Würzburg/Aschaffenburg, then Hanau, Frankfurt.

HMV: Do you suspect the estate is near Aschaffenburg?

Bonobo: I'm more inclined towards Frankfurt. I don't know. They distracted me so brilliantly that I didn't even realize where we were going.

HMV: Do you no longer have a sense of how long the drive took?

Bonobo: Firstly, we took different routes, secondly, it sometimes took a long time, then it was relatively short. We took the highway once, and once we didn't - I remember that. At some point, when I was nine or ten, I wondered why we took different routes. But I didn't dwell on it.

HMV: Nine or ten - meaning about 5 years had passed by then!?

Bonobo: Yes.

HMV: Okay. - You were just describing how you first arrived there and how you perceived it, with the other children. - What happened next?

Bonobo: I was introduced to the children and allowed to play with them. The first thing that happened was that I had to go into a room with three other children, where three men and two women were sitting, if I remember correctly. We had to stand in the middle, forming a circle so we couldn't escape. And then... yes, they were allowed to touch us. That was basically the initial experience.

HMV: How were they "touching" you?

Bonobo: Yes! We stood there, and they were allowed to stroke us, touch our genitals. We could - but didn't have to - touch them. It was... I have no idea what kind of game that was supposed to be!... Some sort of introduction or... No idea!

HMV: Was Miriam present too?

Bonobo: No, she wasn't there. It was three boys. And, like I said, three men and two women. Something like that - if I remember correctly... Yes... The people were dressed. That's how it was back then. I remember it was recorded! But I never saw it again! No idea what happened to that, what they did with it... That was the first thing. Then I was asked if I enjoyed it... Ugh - I even said: "Yes!"... Yes, and then the first real clients came. I was slowly introduced. So, first, I was presented to the doctor. We called him "Dog Nose" because for some reason, he also sniffed around the children's genital area - like a dog! So, I was presented to him, he examined me from head to toe...

HMV: ...Excuse me?

Bonobo: He examined me! From head to toe... Yes... He then came to the decision that I was healthy enough to be sexually abused, to put it bluntly. After that, I had my first sexual experience with Gilbert, who performed oral sex on me, and I had to perform oral sex on him. He also had anal intercourse with me for the first time... Uh... yeah, it hurt like hell... After that was over, I was graciously allowed to go to Miriam. That was the end of that day. Miriam hugged me, I cried, everything hurt. Miriam comforted me and said things like, "One day, it won't bother you anymore!" I didn't quite understand what she meant... [chuckles]... Yes!... The second time, the next day, I wanted to refuse. It was a stranger who was supposed to or wanted to have sex with me... I wanted to refuse. So, they gave me a puppy. That's my dog now, I have to take care of him, feed him, let him out in the garden, etc... And if I'm not good, they'll take the dog away. That became my dog. I didn't want them to take him away, so I went along with it... Yeah, that's how it went. I then became a bit rebellious because I realized I could get away with a bit more than the other children, which... I only fully understood the reason for later. - I had a family in the background, and every injury had to be explained in some way. That's - was the reason why I could get away with a bit more and was beaten a bit less than the others, or wasn't brought to the point of being one of the biggest jerks. - Let's just say it like that.

HMV: They hit you?

Bonobo: Yes - but by far not as much as the others. I got a slap, a smack on the backside, or one on the head... Ptt... [gestures a slap]... "Are you behaving now!" – Things like that.

HMV: So, besides the threat that they would take away your dog, which put pressure on you, they also...

Bonobo: ...physically disciplined you. - With the dog or with animals in general. Since there were also cats around, whatever you liked... I had a fondness for dogs, so they gave me a dog. And if you went a bit overboard or weren't quite on point, or if there was even the slightest risk, especially with me, that I might try to reveal something, they would simply go ahead and kill the dog. In the presence of the child... So, they slit the throat of my first dog, and I had to watch. I cried my eyes out. That was my poor dog... back and forth. I behaved very, very well for a long time after that. Then I was given another dog. I didn't want him to suffer the same fate... But basically, they could do whatever they wanted, and eventually... they simply killed the dog! That... Yeah, and at some point... I think I went through six or seven dogs! Eventually, I simply knew it was just a game for them to keep me in check somehow. - It just stopped working at some point! That... Yeah!

HMV: ...This is very cruel, what you're telling me!

Bonobo: Ha!

HMV: I can't believe it! - When you were at that place for the first time, you were there for two days...

Bonobo: ...the weekend!

HMV: The weekend - and this Gilbert raped you!?

Bonobo: Yes.

HMV: Then, the next day, it was another man!?

Bonobo: Yes.

HMV: Were you given that dog already at that point...?

Bonobo: Yes, yes, I had him already.

HMV: Were you given that dog the first time?

Bonobo: Yes, as a thank you for... for being so well-behaved, enduring everything and so on... And if I'm always so good, then that's my dog. That's how it was...

HMV: Then they... You wanted to refuse on the second day because the first time was incredibly painful...

Bonobo: Yes.

HMV: ...and this stranger, did he force you...?

Bonobo: No, Gilbert forced me. ... The others forced me, he was a client, a customer that I had to serve.

HMV: Already on the very first time when you were brought there, on the second day!?

Bonobo: Yes. I was practically deflowered. They found out that they could do it with me. I'll put it in the way they spoke there, the "ass is widened, you can put it in - and you get used to the rest." That's how they spoke there.

HMV: Something like that doesn't happen without injuries...!

Bonobo: Exactly!

HMV: You must have still been injured from the first day!

Bonobo: Yes. Well, he was quite careful, I have to say. There were injuries, a bit of blood. As I said, there were doctors present. I was examined, my anus was somehow lubricated. And the next day, it was okay enough to continue.

HMV: You mentioned there were doctors present. Are you sure they were doctors?

Bonobo: Yes, yes! I know now that they were doctors, trained pediatricians! That's crystal clear.

HMV: After that weekend, were you brought back to your parents?

Bonobo: Yes.

HMV: That was a traumatic weekend.

Bonobo: From today's perspective: Yes!

[Silence]

HMV: Did you try to talk to your parents about it?

Bonobo: No! - Two problems: Firstly, they scared me that if I said anything, my parents would end up like the dog. I saw what happened to the dog, meaning... ... Secondly, I was threatened that I couldn't see Miriam anymore. That was almost worse because she was everything to me. The only thing that was noticeable, my sister told me later, which I hadn't realized, was that I started wetting my pants.

HMV: At five years old?

Bonobo: Yes, almost six! I was almost six. What I can remember is having diarrhea and it burning like hell. But I didn't dare to go to my mother or my father.

HMV: Your mother also didn't notice when she bathed you, she didn't realize you were injured?!

Bonobo: ... Let's go back briefly to Bärensprung, my first sexual abuse. When I came downstairs, I was supposed to take a bath. My mother wanted to undress me as usual. I was afraid that she might see what I had done with the man upstairs. Not that he did something to me, but that I did something with him. And I refused to undress in front of my mother, etc. - She then said: "Oh, my little one is slowly growing up!" When I still hesitated, I got a few slaps - slaps! Then my pants were ripped off, I was put in the bathtub, and showered. After that experience, I didn't say anything. I couldn't go to my father because he was so hot-tempered, he wouldn't have believed me anyway! And my mother, she was so busy surviving all that shit. She didn't have time - for me! Or rather, for us, for my sister just as little!

HMV: After that weekend at Gilbert's, did your mother not try to bathe you...?

Bonobo: No, because... [chuckles]... I was already bathed! I came back freshly bathed or showered. Everything was there in that house. It was a real house, with everything. I must have smelled like flowers! As far as that went, I came back cleaner than when I arrived.

HMV: Your chuckling is confusing me - what were you thinking?

Bonobo: Yes, in some ways, I felt better in that brothel than at home. And that's just such an ambivalence - when I think about it, I can't help but laugh - chuckle. That's how it is!

HMV: There was no conversation with your parents!?

Bonobo: No, nothing at all! They did ask me, "So, how was it?" - And I said, "Great, played with Miriam!" And then I told the positive things: The swimming pool - huge thing! Sauna! - It was the first time I was in a sauna in my life, as a little kid, it's an experience. And then I talked about them giving me a dog!

HMV: But you couldn't bring the dog back with you?

Bonobo: No! - My father didn't want any animals, no pets. My mother eventually brought home a little mixed-breed dog. Funny. How old was I then? That was when we had the snack bar. Maybe 9, 10, 11 or so. She brought home some mutt she had rescued from another family. Yes, eventually he accepted that one, after a long back and forth.

HMV: You were allowed to keep that one?

Bonobo: That wasn't mine, that was her dog! But the dog I got from Gilbert, or from the organization, that was meant for... Eventually, he would die because Bonobo wasn't always obedient.

"Show me a few children!"

HMV: You are now speaking about "the organization"?

Bonobo: Yes.

HMV: What should I imagine that to be?

Bonobo: It's a branch of an even larger organization. This branch runs child brothels, produces child pornography on a large scale, professionally. These images cost a fortune - and so do the films. Yes, one could, I don't like to use the term, call it a child porn ring...

HMV: What happened next?

Bonobo: I was there quite often, at least twice a month. On weekends, holidays, whenever possible. I have to say that I wanted to go there - solely because of Miriam. I endured all that crap just to be with Miriam. They figured that out pretty quickly! If I was threatened with: "Then you won't see Miriam today, you won't see her today!", then I did everything, everything they wanted. Well, then the first filming started... [chuckles] The first recordings were with other boys, other girls, including Miriam. ... Sexual acts involving penetration and so on, which I didn't find particularly bad. It didn't hurt, it was even fun. It was an adventure.

HMV: You mean the sexual acts between the children?

Bonobo: Yes. So that was... - Ah, I almost enjoyed it! - You could even call it enjoying. Yes! It was nice. Yes, and then there were also recordings with adults. - The real question now is, should I go into details a bit? There are different things. I mean, I also continued to develop... I even received some lines at some point.

HMV: Do you want to go into detail?

Bonobo: If that can be written into the book... Then I would say, ... yes, let's start with the worst. - So now I can't really do it in chronological order anymore ... So let's start somewhere now...

HMV: Yes...

Bonobo: I guess I was seven or eight, around that time. I had to get into bed with a woman - it was quite disgusting... I lack the word... It was vile. I was supposed to lick her vagina. She played with my penis - not exactly gently! Really brutal! Then she demanded that I put my hand in her vagina... Phew... it went away! She wanted me to put my foot in, with another woman...

HMV: ... there was another woman?

Bonobo: No, another time. ... This is getting a bit... - ... I want to get through this quickly... [laughs]... No, I can't do this now!

HMV: Okay!

Bonobo: Another time they tried to push my head into the vagina... They did push it in - luckily it didn't fully work! - Then they pressed my head against her breasts - she had such udders! She then forced my head in there and - puh! - squeezed it together. At some point... I couldn't breathe anymore and then I passed out. ... When I came to, they were gone! Miriam was sitting by my bed, stroking me... and so on... Another time... Yes - my penis was probably too small for her! ... I don't know what her issue was! She was riding on me and her hair made everything sore, my whole genital area. But apparently, it wasn't as much fun as she thought it would be. ... She got angry, grabbed my testicles - squeezed! ... Insane pain! Madness! I screamed! ... The bottom line was, I had a testicular torsion. I had to see that... that nosy person, that "dog" [laughs], who then diagnosed it: testicular torsion. I had to wear some kind of spreading underpants to keep it from being squished together, to let it breathe a bit. And I had two days off - you could say. - Yes, women were the worst of all!

HMV: ... Was it always the same place where you were?

Bonobo: Yes, different bedrooms, but the house was always the same.

HMV: The house was always the same, and there were men clients and women clients coming there. When did you understand that, when did you become aware that they were clients?

Bonobo: ... Around the age of eleven. Around the age of eleven, when they sent me to the streets.

HMV: So, these years between your sixth and eleventh year, you were abused and raped there by men and women?

Bonobo: Yes.

HMV: But you didn't realize that these people were using you as a prostitute?

Bonobo: No. - I knew there was money involved, that I did it for money, I understood that quite early because money was negotiated! ... Imagine this: They would select a child from different ... There are different ways to pick a child. Nowadays, it mostly goes through the internet, but back then there were actual catalogs where children were pictured on paper. Or the client or the customer would first come... "Show me a few children!" They were the ones who could test them first, ... touch them, put their penis in their mouth, and so on. Yes, grope them. Then prices were negotiated...

HMV: Did these negotiations happen between the customers and this Gilbert?

Bonobo: Among others! This Gilbert had his people too.

HMV: Men - also women?

Bonobo: Men and women!

HMV: Were there more men or more women?

Bonobo: There were more men than women. - But the women were much worse!

HMV: In what way?

Bonobo: They were more brutal! Merciless! That is... I can't remember a woman who abused me where I could say there was something that at least gave me a bit of pleasure! With men, yes, that certainly happened. But women? - Nothing! As I said, they weren't even able to perform oral sex without it hurting. It was insane! It was just disgusting, it was like... Ah! I can't even put it into words! It's just...

HMV: What was the numerical ratio between male and female clients?

Bonobo: ... For every 100 men, one woman. Around that!

HMV: So women were the minority?

Bonobo: Yes, they were definitely a minority, at least in that brothel and with me... [Silence]

HMV: ... I apologize for interrupting. You mentioned that with the women it was particularly painful and more brutal...

Bonobo: ... merciless! - You could scream, cry, do whatever you wanted, they were there... They did their thing, merciless, without batting an eye! They just didn't give a damn! Men at least sometimes... Not all, there were assholes too, of course! ... But at least sometimes there was one who would say, "Let's stop this, let's do something else!" - Not them!? - Not in a million years!

HMV: You had already started to describe what happened. You were supposed to put your hand into a woman's vagina, you were supposed to put your head into a woman's vagina...!?

Bonobo: ... the foot!

HMV: The foot?

Bonobo: ... Yes, like I said! I was supposed to lick the vagina, which I found particularly disgusting! It was wet, it smelled... Then the hairs! Then, then, then... I don't even know how to explain it... The whole person was just disgusting! I can't say more about it. It's indescribable, what was going on inside me. - Fear! Utter fear! - Pressing the head between the breasts until you can't breathe! - Crushing testicles! - Hitting! - Holding the nose! - Putting the vagina on the face! - Rubbing around in it and sitting on the penis, riding on it! - The hair scraping down there, it hurts, it burns! - Tastes like crap!

HMV: You said you want to start with the worst...

Bonobo: ... that is already the worst! For me personally, what affected me the most personally! There are other things that other people might consider much worse, but for me personally, these experiences are particularly horrible. Even to this day. I have an aversion towards women, that is... Uh! We are currently struggling with that, to get it somewhat under control. It's going somewhat well now. But it was worse before! That's why I didn't accept women at all. Pure hatred! So even today, I have issues watching movies where women are involved, acting a little. I think to myself: "You stupid ***ch, shut up!" I don't want to see it, don't need to see it! The worst are those who flaunt their breasts on camera, that's it! I turn off the TV at that point, because I just can't bear it!

HMV: When this happened, you were eight?

Bonobo: Seven, eight, that's when it started with the women as well. Initially, it was mainly men and children, then the women joined in... Yes, and then it continued like that. Sex in all variations in all situations. Like I said, I was in the film studio, where... Within a few minutes... There was a kitchen scene, ten minutes later there was a bedroom set up, another ten minutes later there was a living room set up... Prop-wise, it was quick! So, it was... Of course, there were also outdoor shots where we walked around. The area was quite large. - Yes, all kinds of scenarios you can imagine! And like I said, I was still faring much better than others.

"Everything that happens now is your fault!"

HMV: What did you witness?

Bonobo: Everything up to murder! - Everything, including murder!

HMV: Do you want to talk about it?

Bonobo: [Silence] ... We can - yes! ... [Silence]

HMV: If it becomes too much for you, please let me know.

Bonobo: I'm still considering where to start. - Today, I know that so-called snuff films were made. What I saw and witnessed myself was once a girl, maybe a year old, at most, where someone stuck his penis down the child's throat until it suffocated. I was about nine years old. Most children just didn't come back. Later on, I found out that they - disappeared, were killed. The worst of all was Miriam... Yes, now I'll just jump ahead. It was December 23, 1980, two days after my birthday. Miriam was supposed to go to bed with a client, whom it was known was a real brute. I didn't want that, I rebelled against it and tried everything possible. I bit, screamed, kicked, spat. But none of that helped, she had to go there... I said, 'If Miriam has to go to that man now, I'll tell everything to my mother.' Then I got slapped. Then I was grabbed, I had long hair as a child at that time. I was seized by the hair, dragged along, so was Miriam. I was held down, forced to watch. Gilbert took a knife, held it to her throat, and said to me, "Everything that happens now is your fault!" And then he cut through her throat. Through her neck! Blood sprayed out... It took forever. - Not as fast as in the movies! ... It took forever! ... I still see her trying to speak, but nothing comes out! I see her mouth forming my name - but all that comes out is a gurgle... Then, thankfully, I eventually passed out. When I came to, Miriam was no longer recognizable as Miriam... She was dismembered. There was blood everywhere, blood even stuck to me that was still warm. I had to practically wade through the blood and pack her body parts in bags. Then I was told that if I uttered a single word...

[Interruption by nursing staff]

HMV: Bonobo, you describe this terrible incident without showing any emotional agitation. You talk about many things as if they hardly affect you at all.

Bonobo: You have to distinguish that! Internally, it does affect me, especially concerning Miriam. I've told this story quite a few times now, so I can talk about it with more distance. But it does affect me, it's not like it doesn't! Many things back then didn't feel as bad as they do today! So, I might just be numb. ... I mean, it takes a lot or rather little emotion to abuse a child! You have to be completely numb to pull that off.

HMV: I'm sorry if I press on this again - how did you experience that situation back then? ... You loved Miriam - and this Gilbert kills her in front of your eyes and forces you to pack her body parts in plastic bags!

Bonobo: Yes, that... Of course, it was cruel! Absolutely cruel. And when I'm alone, I can cry about it and everything. As I mentioned earlier, we held a memorial service in Straubing! I... I cried the whole time during that memorial. That also helped me to get over it a bit, to see it with more distance, because I blamed myself.

HMV: You just recounted an event whose cruelty is almost unimaginable. - You were present when this girl, who was everything to you...

Bonobo: ... Yes. ...

HMV: ... was murdered in front of your eyes. You were forced to pack the body parts of this child in bags... How do you feel now as you tell this?

Bonobo: It's better today, because I was fortunate enough to be in Straubing, where they held a memorial for Miriam, which helped me a lot in overcoming it and being able to tell it with more distance. ... It's cruel, it's absolutely cruel! I blamed myself entirely. Why did I have such a big mouth, what was that about?

HMV: You did what you were forced to do. What happened next?

Bonobo: As I said, they then told me that if I told anyone a word about it, they would do the same to my parents, my sister, my grandmother, basically my whole family. ... I... didn't do much. I wasn't suitable anymore for the elite brothel because I just lay there, let people slide over me, wasn't suitable for films anymore because I didn't do anything but lie there. They then decided to send me to the baby brothel in Frankfurt. - Railway worker, a well-known thing!

HMV: What? - "Railway worker?"

Bonobo: That's what they called it! There's a railway bridge and under that bridge is the child prostitution area. - I don't know if it's still like that today! But I think so. Among other things, there were other places where I had to go. ... And that's when I realized that they were clients, that I was being sold, etc.

HMV: That was when you were ten or eleven...

Bonobo: Ten and a half, eleven - around that age. I turned ten on 21.12.80 - and then in the summer, I got onto the streets.

HMV: What kind of girl was Miriam?

Bonobo: From today's perspective? - A cheeky brat! [smiling] Very self-assured! Basically - she gave me strength. She allowed me to survive all the crap, she... She was the strong one, really!

HMV: Where did Miriam come from, didn't she have parents?

Bonobo: No, most children in this brothel - or in most brothels - were so-called "products" that were made for the purpose... To put it bluntly. There are places where women voluntarily or forcibly get impregnated and give birth. This child doesn't show up anywhere, disappears in such brothels. Or they are bought in from abroad, with the knowledge of the parents, or abducted somewhere, and simply disappear. And that's it.

HMV: Does that mean you were somewhat of an exception in this brothel?

Bonobo: There were children, for example, like little M.B., who were brought in by their parents and also taken back. Not much was allowed to happen to him, not much needed to be explained, but he also went to school and everything. You had to be a bit careful with the little one, couldn't do everything. But those who were... "produced," I can't express it any other way, they had it bad! They really had it bad, and I can't remember anyone turning 16 there!

HMV: So, these children were literally used up?

Bonobo: There were children whose teeth were pulled out so they could perform oral sex better.

HMV: Who did that?

Bonobo: The doctors. There were doctors! If there were children who, for whatever reason, couldn't get an erection, they somehow got an injection in the penis. Then it stood for hours. ... Must have been quite painful. They just did whatever they wanted with them. They also made so-called snuff films with them. Snuff films - killing in front of the camera! They were filmed there.

HMV: Did you witness something like that?

Bonobo: Yes, with the little girl. One year old or so...

HMV: ... was it intentional that you were made to watch, maybe to intimidate you, or was your presence part of the staging...?

Bonobo: That's not staged!

HMV: No, that's not what I mean... So, part of this murder, this sexual murder...?

Bonobo: I would say: They didn't really care who was watching or not watching. Or who walked past in front of the camera! ... It wasn't like that! I don't know... Maybe it was just that I wanted to see what was going on. I can't say why I got involved. No one took my hand and said, "Now watch this!" They did that on other occasions, but not for something like that. So, I can't remember now. It was casual, can't think of anything... At first, they showed me how to have sex, yes, how to move during sex, in front of the camera and all that... How to smile into the camera! ...

HMV: Were the children who were "produced" then murdered...?

Bonobo: Most of them, yes!

HMV: Why don't their bodies surface, where do they disappear to?

Bonobo: I never found that out. It's a point where they didn't say anything... I did a lot in that organization, later on, I was directly involved. - Either I participate, or I die, then I won't say anything more. ... But regarding that, I have absolutely no idea! I know it happens. I have an approximate idea of how it's done. But where the bodies ultimately disappear to...? I have my suspicions, but...

HMV: ... what suspicions do you have?

Bonobo: That he throws them into the sea, to the sharks - no idea! I don't know where they take them, so the body parts are never found anywhere. Or that they're buried on the property ... - I don't know! No idea! I also never directly witnessed anything like that.

HMV: These experiences must have been so traumatic for you that you weren't a normal child anymore!? You surely went to school back then, your parents must have enrolled you there...

Bonobo: ... Yes, very normally, I had two lives. ...

HMV: ... and yet you were picked up at least twice a month and taken to the brothel. All that over a period of five to six years.

Bonobo: Yes. It was more at times. For example, during holidays like Easter, if there were four consecutive days, then I was there for four days, and during vacations, I was there for two or three weeks straight. - I wanted to be with Miriam!

HMV: When other children had holidays, Easter, Christmas, ...

Bonobo: ... I was there! The other kids would talk about summer camps, etc., and I had no idea what they were talking about, what was going on, because I was constantly at that brothel.

HMV: ... you were there!

Bonobo: In most cases. Christmas, my mother was quite insistent that I should stay at home - which I didn't like at all! [laughs] I have to say this! So, I resisted, I wanted to be with Miriam!

HMV: Even though you knew what awaited you there!?

Bonobo: Yes! I accepted it to be with Miriam, to be able to protect her! Although it was actually the other way around, ultimately, when you think about it - but I wanted to be with Miriam. I wanted to protect her, I wanted her with me. That's difficult to explain. When you're truly in love, that's the only thing I... Yes! We never had sex with each other on our own initiative! No touching of genitals or anything like that. A peck here and there, as kids do, but no French kiss! It never occurred to us. We only had sex with each other when demanded. Otherwise... Never!

HMV: So never voluntarily, always only forced?

Bonobo: Exactly. We have to say we much preferred having sex with each other than with anyone else! Of course! But only when it was said: "Alright, you have to now!" That is... [Silence]

"I had an easy time as a pedophile."

HMV: I am - completely shaken up right now by what you just told me... These are things that are so incomprehensible... Before we started this conversation, at our first meeting, we talked about why you seek this conversation and why we are recording it. You want... But maybe you just say for yourself what your motivations are...!